TITHONUS' DIARY!!


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long MSN conversation
2003-10-29 - 3:57 p.m.

Ok, what follows is a very long conversation from MSN. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean you will. Feel free to skip it. Basically we spend a lot of time talking about power-relations between men and women.

-

Oh, and the other person I am talking to is the inimitable starlight.

-

Star says:

YO

Itylus says:

yo

Itylus says:

I am just reading your entry about marriage

Itylus says:

it's good

Star says:

women SUCK, did you know that?

Itylus says:

yep

Itylus says:

that's what makes them so great at oral sex

Star says:

hahaha

Itylus says:

seriously, though

Itylus says:

the marriage-cult is scary

Itylus says:

and very suckful

Star says:

mhmm

Star says:

yup

Star says:

i

Itylus says:

I guess part of your entry was aimed at me, though...

Star says:

i'm never getting married

Itylus says:

...fairly, though

Itylus says:

I mean, I think you're right, it's wrong to "look for a relationship"

Star says:

not really you, specifically

Itylus says:

not that that's going to stop me

Itylus says:

yeah, I know

Itylus says:

but I bet part of it was prompted by our discussion last night

Star says:

yeah

Star says:

i just think you should want the person, not the relationship

Itylus says:

Well, Carla replied to my email

Itylus says:

...

Itylus says:

...I think she's kind of pissed off at me

Star says:

what did she say?

Itylus says:

although of course she didn't say as much

Itylus says:

ok, hang on, I'll copy it in for you

Itylus says:

I haven't really read it myself

Itylus says:

Dear Tithonus,

Hope that you're managing to get your head around those papers...if you've

been able to confront them. Forty papers must be time consumming to mark.

Tithonus I'm really sorry I was not more explicit about the fact that I am seeing

someone. I was just really excited to be getting to know some people down

here better as it's taken so long!

Itylus says:

Thinking back there had been a perfect opportunity to bring it up the first

afternoon we met for 'coffee' - despite the fact that neither of us had any,

when you mentioned your friend from Cork. However I didn't bring it up then

as I personally don't appreciate it when I'm getting to know someone of the

opposite sex and they mention their girlfriend as if I am trying to crack

onto them.

Itylus says:

I guess the chocolates and CD were fairly good indicators of your interest

that I should not have ignored. My assertive skills are clearly lacking.

Therefore I want to appologise Tithonus for making you feel awkward or

embarrised. You have no reason to feel either. I enjoyed the brief time we

hung out.

Itylus says:

It's a horribly cliche line but I really would like to invest in a

friendship with you. Maybe now in due time, and if you'd like to, and if it

is not too late.

For this reason I would like to contact you again in the next couple of

weeks to see if you'd like to meet up. If you'd prefer not to...

Genuinely sorry once again for my lack of communication.

Itylus says:

Good luck

Carla

Itylus says:

actually, now that I read over that, she doesn't seem pissed off at all

Star says:

no...

Star says:

..she just sounds like a..

Star says:

...

Star says:

a

Itylus says:

a what?

Star says:

...dork

Itylus says:

a DORK????

Itylus says:

really?

Star says:

uh

Star says:

yeah

Itylus says:

what makes you say that?

Star says:

i guess shes just naiive

Itylus says:

yeah

Itylus says:

yeah, I think she is AMAZINGLY naiive

Star says:

yup

Itylus says:

like, she is 22 and more naiive than most of the girls I knew in school were at 15

Itylus says:

I mean, she only takes the hint about the chocolates NOW, in HINDSIGHT?????

Star says:

hehe

Star says:

shes VERY naiive

Itylus says:

I mean, not that there's anything wrong with that

Itylus says:

it's quite charming, in a way

Itylus says:

just... surprising

Star says:

yeah but

Star says:

I know you think I don't think like most women...

Star says:

but..

Star says:

that entry I wrote where J. asked me to his house, and I knew that meant sex...

Itylus says:

uh huh

Star says:

honestly, ALL women would know that

Itylus says:

um

Itylus says:

I've invited women over to my house before without trying to have sex with them

Star says:

yeah but..

Star says:

argh

Itylus says:

maybe it was something specific about the way he invited you

Star says:

no

Star says:

it was completely friendly

Itylus says:

hmmm

Itylus says:

but if what you're saying is true

Itylus says:

then anytime I ask a woman to come over to my house, and she says yes...

Star says:

i'm just saying shes very, very naiive

Itylus says:

...basically she has already agreed to sleep with me?

Star says:

well

Star says:

it depends

Star says:

but basically, yeah

Itylus says:

well, maybe things are different depending on the circles you move in

Itylus says:

certainly, I've never thought of it that way...

Itylus says:

...on the other hand, I thought that "I am giving you chocolates" was pretty damn clear code for "I am potentially romantically interested in you"

Star says:

it was clear

Star says:

you couldnt have been clearer

Itylus says:

without being sleazy

Itylus says:

I mean, I could rub my crotch against her or something, that would be pretty clear

Star says:

you couldnt be sleazy if you tried

Itylus says:

*rubs his crotch against you*

Star says:

hah, lies!

Star says:

youre the most unsleaziest person that ever existed

Itylus says:

you're very kind to say so

Star says:

i'm very serious

Itylus says:

it's not to anything to with inherent unsleaziness, though

Itylus says:

it's just my crippling fear of being perceived as being sleazy

Star says:

but thats so silly

Itylus says:

why?

Star says:

becuase its like you think its wrong to be sexually attracted to her

Itylus says:

well, now that I know about her boyfriend

Itylus says:

I do think it's wrong to be sexually attracted to her

Itylus says:

and I'm quite capable of repressing that side of my feelings for her

Itylus says:

but...

Itylus says:

...yeah, I guess I don't think there's anything wrong, in principle, with being sexually attracted to a woman who's available

Itylus says:

but it's like, I have this fear embedded in me

Itylus says:

that the sky will fall on me or something if I reveal the sexual part of my nature to people who... um... to people in general

Itylus says:

or something

Star says:

mm

Star says:

you really need to get over that

Itylus says:

thanks

Itylus says:

perhaps you have some suggestion as to how this "getting over it" might be accomplished?

Star says:

you need to know who you are, and present yourself to peoplae as you really are, and say to them either take me as I am, or fuck off

Itylus says:

yeah

Itylus says:

that would be great, if i could do that

Itylus says:

but it's not easy

Star says:

i did it

Star says:

its really not hard

Itylus says:

but you're a decent human being!

Star says:

oh for fucks sake

Itylus says:

I'm a festering crypt of vile monstrosityness!

Star says:

i suck!

Star says:

no one sucks more than me!

Itylus says:

I DO!!!!!

Star says:

whatEVER

Itylus says:

seriously, though

Itylus says:

I agree that I should

Itylus says:

and I know I'm not really a festering crypt of anything

Itylus says:

but... you know how brave I am

Itylus says:

I lack the necessary courage to eat an orange in a restaurant

Star says:

you have to learn that youre the same as every other hman being

Itylus says:

let alone brazenly flaunt the sexual part of my nature

Star says:

yeah, you need to work on yhour courage

Itylus says:

well, I think the fact that I approached Carla in the first place was a step forward

Star says:

yeah, that was excellent

Itylus says:

and the fact that I just came right out and told her I was interested in her after she revealed she had a boyfriend

Star says:

but you should stop being ashamed of your needs

Itylus says:

a few years ago, I NEVER would have done that

Star says:

its great, i agree with you

Star says:

its really really good

Itylus says:

but there's still work to do, huh?

Star says:

you should stop being ashamed of liking sex

Star says:

and you should stop with this double standard shit

Itylus says:

hahaha

Itylus says:

I know

Star says:

but it is shit, you realise that surely?

Itylus says:

but... the double standard isn't just me, you know?

Itylus says:

like, it's built into the whole of society...

Star says:

who else is it?

Itylus says:

well, I assume you mean my gender double standards

Star says:

yes

Itylus says:

where I think if a man and woman have casual sex, automatically the man must be exploiting the woman in some way

Itylus says:

if I didn't have double standards

Star says:

and you need to learn thats crap

Itylus says:

I'd be able to assume that they're both getting sex out of it so they're both fine

Itylus says:

or, that either of them could be exploiting the other

Itylus says:

the thing is, in principle, I sort of agree that it's crap

Star says:

but?

Itylus says:

but again... it's this guilt business

Star says:

ok, but what about this

Itylus says:

it's like, whenever there are two or more different standards by which you can judge something

Itylus says:

I choose the standard that makes me look the worst

Star says:

what if i went out with a guy who had a girlfriend, and I didnt know

Itylus says:

uh huh

Star says:

wouldnt you think he was a jerk for not telling me?

Itylus says:

OH YEAH

Itylus says:

HELL YEAH

Star says:

so why dont you think Carlas a jerk?

Itylus says:

...

Itylus says:

you've got me there

Star says:

don't let her get away with it because shes a woman

Itylus says:

but...

Star says:

but what?

Star says:

you know i'm right

Itylus says:

...see, if a guy went out with you and didn't tell you he had a girlfriend

Itylus says:

it would be that he was deliberately keeping you in the dark

Itylus says:

in order to have sex with you

Itylus says:

but Carla doesn't want sex from me

Star says:

youre wrong

Itylus says:

as far as I can tell, she doesn't want anything from me

Itylus says:

I'm wrong?

Star says:

then shes a jerk for agreeing to go out with you

Itylus says:

except friendship, and how could I think of her as being a jerk for just wanting to be friends?

Itylus says:

she was just being naiive

Star says:

oh for gods sake

Itylus says:

if a guy asked you out and didn't tell you he had a girlfriend

Itylus says:

out of pure naiivety

Itylus says:

that would be ok

Star says:

shes either REALLY stupid, or shes a jerk

Itylus says:

although highly improbable

Itylus says:

hahahaha

Itylus says:

I don't think she's stupid...

Itylus says:

...

Itylus says:

...well, I guess that's a possibility...

Star says:

i think shes a jerk

Itylus says:

...she didn't seem stupid, though

Itylus says:

but

Itylus says:

what on earth did she have to gain from the whole exercise?

Star says:

the power she had over you

Star says:

it made her feel good to feel wanted

Star says:

she was using you

Itylus says:

really?

Star says:

yeah, i think she was

Itylus says:

but then, why does she now say she wants to invest in a friendship with me, if the jig is up?

Star says:

well, her boyfriend could be on the way out

Star says:

and she wants to test the waters, see who else is out there

Itylus says:

or maybe she wants to stay with him, but he doesn't make her feel wanted anymore because he takes her for granted!

Itylus says:

Good lord! I feel whole new vistas of paranoia and misogyny opening up before me!

Star says:

TITHONUS STOP IT

Itylus says:

stop what?

Star says:

you ALWAYS make women the victims

Star says:

its INSULTING

Itylus says:

uh

Itylus says:

I wasn't doing it there, was I?

Star says:

yes you were!

Itylus says:

I mean, she's not a victim if she strikes back, is she?

Itylus says:

see, if she's USING me, to make herself feel WANTED and POWERFUL, then she's not a victim?

Star says:

right

Star says:

i think shes using you

Star says:

and you think shes a victim

Itylus says:

I was just talking about something that happens in lots of long term relationships

Itylus says:

where both parties start taking each other for granted

Itylus says:

I guess the thing is, my ego is really quite small in some ways

Star says:

and big in other ways

Itylus says:

and it's genuinely strange for me to think of someone feeling validated by me wanting them

Itylus says:

yes, I agree

Star says:

you need to realise youre a human being, and theres no shame in that

Itylus says:

big in some ways, small in other ways

Itylus says:

but there's lots of shame in being a human being!

Star says:

yeah

Star says:

there is

Itylus says:

for example, if you're a man, life is a never-ending round of exploiting women, who are always being victimised by you!

Star says:

but youre one of them, and you have to accept that

Star says:

oh fuck off

Star says:

you insult women when you say things like that

Itylus says:

...

Itylus says:

I meant it as a joke

Itylus says:

you know, a tongue-in-cheek recognition of the fact that you're right

Star says:

but you say it all the time

Star says:

and you believe it

Itylus says:

I do assume women are victims far too often

Star says:

so, its insulting

Itylus says:

and it is insulting

Itylus says:

yeah

Star says:

it is

Itylus says:

so, hence my lame attempt to recognise that fact

Star says:

we are big girls you know, we can look after ourselves

Itylus says:

well...

Itylus says:

...ok, I am going to phrase this very carefully...

Itylus says:

...but sometimes people genuinely are victims...

Star says:

ok...

Itylus says:

...people of either gender...

Itylus says:

...for example, uh, have you gotten any of the Folbigg stuff in the news over there?

Star says:

nope

Itylus says:

Basically she is a woman who murdered four of her own babies, one after another

Itylus says:

now, in that case, it's pretty clear that those babies were victims, isn't it?

Star says:

right

Itylus says:

they *weren't* big girls/boys, they *couldn't* look after themselves?

Star says:

thats my point!

Star says:

you're calling women babies!

Itylus says:

and sometimes, situations analagous to that situation arise between adults?

Itylus says:

well, look, it would be insulting for me to suggest that all women are babies, all the time

Star says:

but thats what you do!

Star says:

thats what you suggest, it's really, really insulting

Itylus says:

but, for example, if I say a woman in a violent relationship is a victim of her husband, that would be correct, wouldn't it?

Itylus says:

I mean, would it be better to say, "she's a grown woman, she can take care of herself"?

Star says:

well, yes she is a victim

Star says:

but she should have enough sense about her to get out of the relationship

Itylus says:

ok, but having sense is a matter of luck, mostly, wouldn't you agree?

Itylus says:

I mean, some people have more than others, and it's not a result of being virtuous, it's just a result of happenstance, isn't that right?

Star says:

yeah , fine but thats not the point

Star says:

the point is you assume all women are like that

Star says:

you cant excuse women who do things that arent right simply because they're women

Itylus says:

well, I don't

Itylus says:

going back to the Folbigg case, she's a woman

Itylus says:

but she's obviously not the victim in her relationship with her male sons

Itylus says:

she's the one with the power

Itylus says:

so I see her as being at fault

Star says:

good

Itylus says:

I guess... ok, I guess my problem is that I'm not very sensitive to, or aware of, the kinds of power that women use over men

Itylus says:

whereas I'm hypersensitive to the kinds of power men use over women

Itylus says:

because women are much more subtle than men are, in their exercise of power

Star says:

you have to realise that women are humans too

Star says:

and they do the same awful things that men do

Itylus says:

hey, you're right!

Star says:

you cant excuse them becaue they're women

Itylus says:

half of the people who supported Nazism in Germany would have been women!

Star says:

and seriously, they do use men in the most awful way

Star says:

yes, and that too

Itylus says:

well

Itylus says:

I guess it isn't that awful, I mean...

Itylus says:

...if men are trying to use women, and women are trying to use men...

Itylus says:

...it's kind of like Rugby, isn't it?

Itylus says:

in the sense that, it's a full-contact sport, so long as everyone understands the rules, then nobody is really a "victim"...

Star says:

...i suppose so..

Itylus says:

See, I know something about Rugby, aren't you proud of me?

Star says:

wheee!

Star says:

amazing!

Itylus says:

THE WALLABIES ARE GOING TO SMASH THE ALL BLACKS!!!!!

Star says:

THEY SO ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

Itylus says:

THEY SO ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

THE ALL BLACKS WILL BEAT YOUTO A PULP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

THE WALLABIES ARE GOING TO COME ROUND TO YOUR HOUSE AND BURN IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

AND MURDER YOUR PARENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

like 'wallabies' could even think about competing with ALL BLACKS anyway!

Star says:

WALLABIES ARE WIMPS!1111111111

Itylus says:

ALL BLACKS ARE ALL SLACK!!!!!!!

Star says:

NAH UH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

UH HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

WE WILL WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

YOULL SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

NO WAY JOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

WAY JOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

JOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

You are going to lose

Star says:

so am not

Itylus says:

TO WALES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

HAH]

Star says:

WE BEAT WLAES TO A PULP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star says:

wales, even

Itylus says:

WALES WILL WHALE ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Itylus says:

ahem

Itylus says:

anyway, uh, so, is it OK for me to post this conversation in my diary?

Star says:

uh, ok

Star says:

which part?

Itylus says:

groovin'

Itylus says:

the whole thing

Itylus says:

why not?

Itylus says:

who cares if anyone actually reads the whole thing?

Itylus says:

I just want to save it for posterity

Star says:

dont pujt in any parts where i sound stupid

Itylus says:

but you always sound stupid

Star says:

and fix my typos

-

Sorry about the unfixed typos. Also, note that unfortunately all of the emoticons are missing from this conversation, so sometimes the "tone" is a bit hard to pick.

-

"It's Ok to steal

Because it's so nice to share" - Loudon Wainwright III


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