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long MSN conversation Ok, what follows is a very long conversation from MSN. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean you will. Feel free to skip it. Basically we spend a lot of time talking about power-relations between men and women. - Oh, and the other person I am talking to is the inimitable starlight. - Star says: YO Itylus says: yo Itylus says: I am just reading your entry about marriage Itylus says: it's good Star says: women SUCK, did you know that? Itylus says: yep Itylus says: that's what makes them so great at oral sex Star says: hahaha Itylus says: seriously, though Itylus says: the marriage-cult is scary Itylus says: and very suckful Star says: mhmm Star says: yup Star says: i Itylus says: I guess part of your entry was aimed at me, though... Star says: i'm never getting married Itylus says: ...fairly, though Itylus says: I mean, I think you're right, it's wrong to "look for a relationship" Star says: not really you, specifically Itylus says: not that that's going to stop me Itylus says: yeah, I know Itylus says: but I bet part of it was prompted by our discussion last night Star says: yeah Star says: i just think you should want the person, not the relationship Itylus says: Well, Carla replied to my email Itylus says: ... Itylus says: ...I think she's kind of pissed off at me Star says: what did she say? Itylus says: although of course she didn't say as much Itylus says: ok, hang on, I'll copy it in for you Itylus says: I haven't really read it myself Itylus says: Dear Tithonus, Hope that you're managing to get your head around those papers...if you've been able to confront them. Forty papers must be time consumming to mark. Tithonus I'm really sorry I was not more explicit about the fact that I am seeing someone. I was just really excited to be getting to know some people down here better as it's taken so long! Itylus says: Thinking back there had been a perfect opportunity to bring it up the first afternoon we met for 'coffee' - despite the fact that neither of us had any, when you mentioned your friend from Cork. However I didn't bring it up then as I personally don't appreciate it when I'm getting to know someone of the opposite sex and they mention their girlfriend as if I am trying to crack onto them. Itylus says: I guess the chocolates and CD were fairly good indicators of your interest that I should not have ignored. My assertive skills are clearly lacking. Therefore I want to appologise Tithonus for making you feel awkward or embarrised. You have no reason to feel either. I enjoyed the brief time we hung out. Itylus says: It's a horribly cliche line but I really would like to invest in a friendship with you. Maybe now in due time, and if you'd like to, and if it is not too late. For this reason I would like to contact you again in the next couple of weeks to see if you'd like to meet up. If you'd prefer not to... Genuinely sorry once again for my lack of communication. Itylus says: Good luck Carla Itylus says: actually, now that I read over that, she doesn't seem pissed off at all Star says: no... Star says: ..she just sounds like a.. Star says: ... Star says: a Itylus says: a what? Star says: ...dork Itylus says: a DORK???? Itylus says: really? Star says: uh Star says: yeah Itylus says: what makes you say that? Star says: i guess shes just naiive Itylus says: yeah Itylus says: yeah, I think she is AMAZINGLY naiive Star says: yup Itylus says: like, she is 22 and more naiive than most of the girls I knew in school were at 15 Itylus says: I mean, she only takes the hint about the chocolates NOW, in HINDSIGHT????? Star says: hehe Star says: shes VERY naiive Itylus says: I mean, not that there's anything wrong with that Itylus says: it's quite charming, in a way Itylus says: just... surprising Star says: yeah but Star says: I know you think I don't think like most women... Star says: but.. Star says: that entry I wrote where J. asked me to his house, and I knew that meant sex... Itylus says: uh huh Star says: honestly, ALL women would know that Itylus says: um Itylus says: I've invited women over to my house before without trying to have sex with them Star says: yeah but.. Star says: argh Itylus says: maybe it was something specific about the way he invited you Star says: no Star says: it was completely friendly Itylus says: hmmm Itylus says: but if what you're saying is true Itylus says: then anytime I ask a woman to come over to my house, and she says yes... Star says: i'm just saying shes very, very naiive Itylus says: ...basically she has already agreed to sleep with me? Star says: well Star says: it depends Star says: but basically, yeah Itylus says: well, maybe things are different depending on the circles you move in Itylus says: certainly, I've never thought of it that way... Itylus says: ...on the other hand, I thought that "I am giving you chocolates" was pretty damn clear code for "I am potentially romantically interested in you" Star says: it was clear Star says: you couldnt have been clearer Itylus says: without being sleazy Itylus says: I mean, I could rub my crotch against her or something, that would be pretty clear Star says: you couldnt be sleazy if you tried Itylus says: *rubs his crotch against you* Star says: hah, lies! Star says: youre the most unsleaziest person that ever existed Itylus says: you're very kind to say so Star says: i'm very serious Itylus says: it's not to anything to with inherent unsleaziness, though Itylus says: it's just my crippling fear of being perceived as being sleazy Star says: but thats so silly Itylus says: why? Star says: becuase its like you think its wrong to be sexually attracted to her Itylus says: well, now that I know about her boyfriend Itylus says: I do think it's wrong to be sexually attracted to her Itylus says: and I'm quite capable of repressing that side of my feelings for her Itylus says: but... Itylus says: ...yeah, I guess I don't think there's anything wrong, in principle, with being sexually attracted to a woman who's available Itylus says: but it's like, I have this fear embedded in me Itylus says: that the sky will fall on me or something if I reveal the sexual part of my nature to people who... um... to people in general Itylus says: or something Star says: mm Star says: you really need to get over that Itylus says: thanks Itylus says: perhaps you have some suggestion as to how this "getting over it" might be accomplished? Star says: you need to know who you are, and present yourself to peoplae as you really are, and say to them either take me as I am, or fuck off Itylus says: yeah Itylus says: that would be great, if i could do that Itylus says: but it's not easy Star says: i did it Star says: its really not hard Itylus says: but you're a decent human being! Star says: oh for fucks sake Itylus says: I'm a festering crypt of vile monstrosityness! Star says: i suck! Star says: no one sucks more than me! Itylus says: I DO!!!!! Star says: whatEVER Itylus says: seriously, though Itylus says: I agree that I should Itylus says: and I know I'm not really a festering crypt of anything Itylus says: but... you know how brave I am Itylus says: I lack the necessary courage to eat an orange in a restaurant Star says: you have to learn that youre the same as every other hman being Itylus says: let alone brazenly flaunt the sexual part of my nature Star says: yeah, you need to work on yhour courage Itylus says: well, I think the fact that I approached Carla in the first place was a step forward Star says: yeah, that was excellent Itylus says: and the fact that I just came right out and told her I was interested in her after she revealed she had a boyfriend Star says: but you should stop being ashamed of your needs Itylus says: a few years ago, I NEVER would have done that Star says: its great, i agree with you Star says: its really really good Itylus says: but there's still work to do, huh? Star says: you should stop being ashamed of liking sex Star says: and you should stop with this double standard shit Itylus says: hahaha Itylus says: I know Star says: but it is shit, you realise that surely? Itylus says: but... the double standard isn't just me, you know? Itylus says: like, it's built into the whole of society... Star says: who else is it? Itylus says: well, I assume you mean my gender double standards Star says: yes Itylus says: where I think if a man and woman have casual sex, automatically the man must be exploiting the woman in some way Itylus says: if I didn't have double standards Star says: and you need to learn thats crap Itylus says: I'd be able to assume that they're both getting sex out of it so they're both fine Itylus says: or, that either of them could be exploiting the other Itylus says: the thing is, in principle, I sort of agree that it's crap Star says: but? Itylus says: but again... it's this guilt business Star says: ok, but what about this Itylus says: it's like, whenever there are two or more different standards by which you can judge something Itylus says: I choose the standard that makes me look the worst Star says: what if i went out with a guy who had a girlfriend, and I didnt know Itylus says: uh huh Star says: wouldnt you think he was a jerk for not telling me? Itylus says: OH YEAH Itylus says: HELL YEAH Star says: so why dont you think Carlas a jerk? Itylus says: ... Itylus says: you've got me there Star says: don't let her get away with it because shes a woman Itylus says: but... Star says: but what? Star says: you know i'm right Itylus says: ...see, if a guy went out with you and didn't tell you he had a girlfriend Itylus says: it would be that he was deliberately keeping you in the dark Itylus says: in order to have sex with you Itylus says: but Carla doesn't want sex from me Star says: youre wrong Itylus says: as far as I can tell, she doesn't want anything from me Itylus says: I'm wrong? Star says: then shes a jerk for agreeing to go out with you Itylus says: except friendship, and how could I think of her as being a jerk for just wanting to be friends? Itylus says: she was just being naiive Star says: oh for gods sake Itylus says: if a guy asked you out and didn't tell you he had a girlfriend Itylus says: out of pure naiivety Itylus says: that would be ok Star says: shes either REALLY stupid, or shes a jerk Itylus says: although highly improbable Itylus says: hahahaha Itylus says: I don't think she's stupid... Itylus says: ... Itylus says: ...well, I guess that's a possibility... Star says: i think shes a jerk Itylus says: ...she didn't seem stupid, though Itylus says: but Itylus says: what on earth did she have to gain from the whole exercise? Star says: the power she had over you Star says: it made her feel good to feel wanted Star says: she was using you Itylus says: really? Star says: yeah, i think she was Itylus says: but then, why does she now say she wants to invest in a friendship with me, if the jig is up? Star says: well, her boyfriend could be on the way out Star says: and she wants to test the waters, see who else is out there Itylus says: or maybe she wants to stay with him, but he doesn't make her feel wanted anymore because he takes her for granted! Itylus says: Good lord! I feel whole new vistas of paranoia and misogyny opening up before me! Star says: TITHONUS STOP IT Itylus says: stop what? Star says: you ALWAYS make women the victims Star says: its INSULTING Itylus says: uh Itylus says: I wasn't doing it there, was I? Star says: yes you were! Itylus says: I mean, she's not a victim if she strikes back, is she? Itylus says: see, if she's USING me, to make herself feel WANTED and POWERFUL, then she's not a victim? Star says: right Star says: i think shes using you Star says: and you think shes a victim Itylus says: I was just talking about something that happens in lots of long term relationships Itylus says: where both parties start taking each other for granted Itylus says: I guess the thing is, my ego is really quite small in some ways Star says: and big in other ways Itylus says: and it's genuinely strange for me to think of someone feeling validated by me wanting them Itylus says: yes, I agree Star says: you need to realise youre a human being, and theres no shame in that Itylus says: big in some ways, small in other ways Itylus says: but there's lots of shame in being a human being! Star says: yeah Star says: there is Itylus says: for example, if you're a man, life is a never-ending round of exploiting women, who are always being victimised by you! Star says: but youre one of them, and you have to accept that Star says: oh fuck off Star says: you insult women when you say things like that Itylus says: ... Itylus says: I meant it as a joke Itylus says: you know, a tongue-in-cheek recognition of the fact that you're right Star says: but you say it all the time Star says: and you believe it Itylus says: I do assume women are victims far too often Star says: so, its insulting Itylus says: and it is insulting Itylus says: yeah Star says: it is Itylus says: so, hence my lame attempt to recognise that fact Star says: we are big girls you know, we can look after ourselves Itylus says: well... Itylus says: ...ok, I am going to phrase this very carefully... Itylus says: ...but sometimes people genuinely are victims... Star says: ok... Itylus says: ...people of either gender... Itylus says: ...for example, uh, have you gotten any of the Folbigg stuff in the news over there? Star says: nope Itylus says: Basically she is a woman who murdered four of her own babies, one after another Itylus says: now, in that case, it's pretty clear that those babies were victims, isn't it? Star says: right Itylus says: they *weren't* big girls/boys, they *couldn't* look after themselves? Star says: thats my point! Star says: you're calling women babies! Itylus says: and sometimes, situations analagous to that situation arise between adults? Itylus says: well, look, it would be insulting for me to suggest that all women are babies, all the time Star says: but thats what you do! Star says: thats what you suggest, it's really, really insulting Itylus says: but, for example, if I say a woman in a violent relationship is a victim of her husband, that would be correct, wouldn't it? Itylus says: I mean, would it be better to say, "she's a grown woman, she can take care of herself"? Star says: well, yes she is a victim Star says: but she should have enough sense about her to get out of the relationship Itylus says: ok, but having sense is a matter of luck, mostly, wouldn't you agree? Itylus says: I mean, some people have more than others, and it's not a result of being virtuous, it's just a result of happenstance, isn't that right? Star says: yeah , fine but thats not the point Star says: the point is you assume all women are like that Star says: you cant excuse women who do things that arent right simply because they're women Itylus says: well, I don't Itylus says: going back to the Folbigg case, she's a woman Itylus says: but she's obviously not the victim in her relationship with her male sons Itylus says: she's the one with the power Itylus says: so I see her as being at fault Star says: good Itylus says: I guess... ok, I guess my problem is that I'm not very sensitive to, or aware of, the kinds of power that women use over men Itylus says: whereas I'm hypersensitive to the kinds of power men use over women Itylus says: because women are much more subtle than men are, in their exercise of power Star says: you have to realise that women are humans too Star says: and they do the same awful things that men do Itylus says: hey, you're right! Star says: you cant excuse them becaue they're women Itylus says: half of the people who supported Nazism in Germany would have been women! Star says: and seriously, they do use men in the most awful way Star says: yes, and that too Itylus says: well Itylus says: I guess it isn't that awful, I mean... Itylus says: ...if men are trying to use women, and women are trying to use men... Itylus says: ...it's kind of like Rugby, isn't it? Itylus says: in the sense that, it's a full-contact sport, so long as everyone understands the rules, then nobody is really a "victim"... Star says: ...i suppose so.. Itylus says: See, I know something about Rugby, aren't you proud of me? Star says: wheee! Star says: amazing! Itylus says: THE WALLABIES ARE GOING TO SMASH THE ALL BLACKS!!!!! Star says: THEY SO ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!] Itylus says: THEY SO ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: THE ALL BLACKS WILL BEAT YOUTO A PULP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: THE WALLABIES ARE GOING TO COME ROUND TO YOUR HOUSE AND BURN IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: AND MURDER YOUR PARENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: like 'wallabies' could even think about competing with ALL BLACKS anyway! Star says: WALLABIES ARE WIMPS!1111111111 Itylus says: ALL BLACKS ARE ALL SLACK!!!!!!! Star says: NAH UH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: UH HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: WE WILL WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: YOULL SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: NO WAY JOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: WAY JOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: JOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: You are going to lose Star says: so am not Itylus says: TO WALES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: HAH] Star says: WE BEAT WLAES TO A PULP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Star says: wales, even Itylus says: WALES WILL WHALE ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Itylus says: ahem Itylus says: anyway, uh, so, is it OK for me to post this conversation in my diary? Star says: uh, ok Star says: which part? Itylus says: groovin' Itylus says: the whole thing Itylus says: why not? Itylus says: who cares if anyone actually reads the whole thing? Itylus says: I just want to save it for posterity Star says: dont pujt in any parts where i sound stupid Itylus says: but you always sound stupid Star says: and fix my typos - Sorry about the unfixed typos. Also, note that unfortunately all of the emoticons are missing from this conversation, so sometimes the "tone" is a bit hard to pick. - "It's Ok to steal Because it's so nice to share" - Loudon Wainwright III |
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